Stuck accelerator kills 4 in Santee *Recall - Page 2*

[dallison]

If they explained every feature in detail, you would have a phonebook. I do agree that manufacturers don't always have the index labeled well.

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[PortlandRL]

My first car was a '93 Toyota Previa and my mom owns a 2002 Lexus RX300. So let me tell you a little bit about Toyota owners manuals.

They are quite possibly the worst manuals ever conceived by man and this is coming from somebody who has waded through the 600-page RL manual. In the Toyota books, there is absolutely no attempt to organize the information in a logical and easy-to-find fashion. Information is strewn about in such a way that it borders on miraculous that the covers are even on the outside. This leads me to believe that the engineers themselves write these publications instead of pumping it through an Japaneerish to English translator first.

Take a few weeks ago, for example when I wanted information about the RX300's snow button on the transmission. We were getting ready to take a trip through the mountains and I wanted to know if it did anything other than start out in 2nd gear.

1. I started in the most logical place; the index. There was absolutely NO mention of snow, transmission, electronically controlled transmission, shifting, driving in snow, or anything like that. None of those passages, even the most basic ones, existed in the index of this 400 page brick of a book.

2. I flipped through the basics and I find the bit about shifting through the gear range. Nothing about the snow function.

3. After ten minutes, I found this cryptic passage somewhere in the bowels of a completely unrelated section not mentioned anywhere else, "To activate the snow program in the electronically controlled transmission, press the button until the ETC - SNOW light illuminates on the dashboard. This will provide you with superior low-speed traction in winter conditions. To turn off the snow program, press the button again." There was absolutely NO mention of its function or what it did to provide superior low-speed traction in winter conditions.

The nitty gritty is this: While Toyota may (and probably does) have a full paragraph in their manuals about holding the start button for three seconds to cut power at speed, chances are good that you'll never find it...even if you look for it. If I were to wager a bet and the RX's manual was any indication, it's probably between the section about the heated seats and the tutorial on filling the washer fluid in Duluth, Minnesota on December 3rd near dusk.

[PortlandRL]

Originally Posted by dallison

If they explained every feature in detail, you would have a phonebook. I do agree that manufacturers don't always have the index labeled well.

Sorry, dallison. I had to delete that original post because I wasn't happy with it and my edit time had expired.

[dallison]

Originally Posted by PortlandRL

Sorry, dallison. I had to delete that original post because I wasn't happy with it and my edit time had expired.

i was like wtf????

[CL6]

I honestly don't know. It's called "Smart Pedal Technology" but I looked through the index of a 2004 E Class manual and didn't find it.

I tried mashing the gas and brake pedal the other day and, sure enough, the engine got killed and the car stopped.

Originally Posted by mrmako

Question: If M-B has been doing the cut out since 2002, is it in their manuals? I'm not being a wiseass or anything, just curious.

If so, someone on here with a 2002-2008 Lexus ES or Camry could pipe in and let us know if this safety feature is in their manuals.

[MiataNut]

Originally Posted by CL6

Anyway, it's too bad the guy died w/his family but I still say neutral, lower gear, parking brake, or turning off the car. You can't tell me none of those things didn't work.

I tend to agree, in that situation you FIND a way to kill it or slow it down, but if there truly was no way, well that would just suck.
As for the pushbutton, seems Toyota missed one failsafe - you have to hold the button for 3 seconds, while other MFRs its 2 seconds and Nissan for one will kill it if you push the button repeatedly, as in a panic. 3 seconds would feel like forever at 100 MPH+ and the road is ending...
...besides, dont forget the ES350 was a LOANER, so he wouldnt be expected to know every nuance of the car. Never have heard what his personal car was, that he had the loaner for.....

[srika]

Originally Posted by MiataNut

besides, dont forget the ES350 was a LOANER, so he wouldnt be expected to know every nuance of the car. Never have heard what his personal car was, that he had the loaner for.....

very good point, we tend to forget about that.

[PortlandRL]

mrmako...next time my mom takes her RX300 in, I'll put myself in the hot seat and see if I can get an ES350 loaner. I will report back my findings.

[mrmako]

Originally Posted by PortlandRL

mrmako...next time my mom takes her RX300 in, I'll put myself in the hot seat and see if I can get an ES350 loaner. I will report back my findings.

I'm just curious to have someone on here do some hands on testing.

[PortlandRL]

It's going to need brakes fairly soon...hopefully something else will break that warrants a loaner.

[mrmako]

From the 4th of March, but relevant:

http://www.japantoday.com/category/business/view/us-still-hearing-complaints-about-fixed-toyotas

I think Toyota is in deeper kimchee (this sounds better than sushi, I know kimchee is Korean) than previously thought.

[PortlandRL]

Recalled cars are still accelerating rogue and these bastards have the balls to try this? Fuck 'em.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100308/...ll_electronics

WASHINGTON – Toyota, dogged by millions of recalls and claims that it still has not fixed its safety problems, took its strongest step yet Monday to silence critics who blame faulty electronics for runaway cars and trucks.

Toyota assembled a group of experts to refute studies by an Illinois professor who revved Toyota engines simply by short-circuiting the wiring. Toyota's experts say the experiments were done under conditions that would never happen on the road.

The automaker maintained its assertion that simpler mechanical flaws, not electronics, were to blame.

"There isn't a ghost issue out there," Kristen Tabar, an electronics general manager with Toyota's technical center, told a news conference at the company's North American headquarters in Torrance, Calif.

Meeting with reporters, Toyota addressed the work of David W. Gilbert, an automotive technology professor at Southern Illinois University-Carbondale, whose work has been the basis of doubts about Toyota's mechanical fixes.

At least one outside expert said that even if Toyota's criticisms are accurate, the professor's work shows the systems that allow brakes to override stuck gas pedals can be compromised.

Toyota is mounting a public campaign to reassure its drivers about their safety and defending itself against critics who question the fix for 8 million recalled cars and trucks. Regulators have linked 52 deaths to crashes allegedly caused by the accelerator problems.

The company's fix addresses gas pedal parts and floor mats that can cause the accelerator to become stuck in the depressed position. More than 60 Toyota owners who have had their cars repaired have complained the problem has persisted.

Toyota dealers have fixed more than 1 million vehicles. But the government has warned that if the remedy provided by Toyota does not properly address the problem, federal regulators could order the company to come up with another solution.

Gilbert told a congressional hearing Feb. 23 that he recreated sudden acceleration in a Toyota Tundra by short-circuiting the electronics behind the gas pedal — without triggering any trouble codes in the truck's computer.

The trouble codes send the car's computer into a fail-safe mode that allows the brake to override the gas. Gilbert called his findings a "startling discovery."

House lawmakers seized on the testimony as evidence Toyota engineers missed a potential problem with the electronics that could have caused the unwanted acceleration.

But Monday, Chris Gerdes, director of Stanford University's Center for Automotive Research, and a consulting firm, Exponent Inc., rejected the professor's findings.

Toyota's assembled experts said the professor's experiments could not be recreated on the actual road. For example, they said, Gilbert had shaved away insulation on wiring and connected wires that would not normally touch each other.

"There is no evidence that I've seen to indicate that this situation is happening at all in the real world," Gerdes said. He added that the professor's work "could result in misguided policy and unwarranted fear."

To prove their point, Toyota officials revved the engines of cars made by competitors, including a Subaru Forester and a Ford Fusion, by connecting a circuit rigged up to the wiring of the gas pedals.

Toyota supports other research programs at Stanford's engineering school and is an affiliate of the Center for Automotive Research, but Gerdes said he came to his conclusions "with complete independence."

Gilbert did not immediately respond to messages seeking comment.

Exponent has conducted work for companies that are being sued and once determined that secondhand tobacco smoke was not cancerous. It was also hired by the U.S. government to investigate the Columbia space shuttle disaster.

Exponent officials said they were conducting an extensive study of Toyota electronics but they had not yet found any problems with the electronic throttle controls.

Toyota has been steadfast in saying the problem is strictly mechanical. Company president Akio Toyoda assured Congress two weeks ago that Toyota research had not found a link between the reports of runaway acceleration and electronics.

Instead, the company is shortening gas pedals to prevent them from becoming lodged under floor mats and inserting metal pieces the size of a stamp to keep gas pedals from sticking in the depressed position.

An outside expert, Raj Rajkumar, an electrical and computer-engineering professor at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh who studies auto electronics, said Gilbert's work raises doubts about the fail-safe systems.

"Pretty much anybody who works on electronic-based vehicle systems understands that things can go wrong," he said.

He said a number of factors could cause vehicle electronics to malfunction, including software coding errors, electrical interference and static electricity. He said technology wasn't available to prove that a system as complex as Toyota's electronic throttle control will always behave correctly.

The professor wasn't trying to prove that his test was a real-world scenario, said Keith Armstrong, a British electronic engineer and consultant who advises companies on electromagnetic interference. Instead Gilbert demonstrated that fail-safe systems may not kick in if faulty signals are sent to the throttle, Armstrong said after reviewing Exponent's report on Gilbert's tests.

Congress has more questions. The House Oversight Committee wants to look at a 2006 memo from company employees to Toyota senior management that raised concerns the automaker was taking shortcuts on safety.

In the memo, first reported Monday by the Los Angeles Times, the employees said they were concerned the processes used to build safe cars might be "ultimately ignored."

The employees warned that if Toyota failed to act, it could "become a great problem that involves the company's survival."

Toyota executives also plan to address recall issues at the company's annual suppliers meeting in Kentucky on Tuesday.

[srika]

Originally Posted by PortlandRL

Recalled cars are still accelerating rogue and these bastards have the balls to try this? Fuck 'em.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100308/...ll_electronics

"There isn't a ghost issue out there," Kristen Tabar, an electronics general manager with Toyota's technical center, told a news conference at the company's North American headquarters in Torrance, Calif.

it's scary that she says this as a matter of fact..

[PortlandRL]

Yet another one....thankfully they were able to get this one stopped. Can't wait to hear something fresh from Toyota's Big Bag o' Excuses.

http://www.katu.com/news/national/87075807.html

EL CAJON, Calif. (AP) - A California Highway Patrol officer helped slow a runaway Toyota Prius from 94 mph to a safe stop on Monday after the car's accelerator became stuck on a San Diego County freeway, the CHP said.

Prius driver James Sikes called 911 about 1:30 p.m. after accelerating to pass another vehicle on Interstate 80 near La Posta and finding that he could not control his car, the CHP said.

"I pushed the gas pedal to pass a car and it did something kind of funny... it jumped and it just stuck there," the 61-year-old driver said at a news conference. "As it was going, I was trying the brakes...it wasn't stopping, it wasn't doing anything and it just kept speeding up," Sikes said, adding he could smell the brakes burning he was pressing the pedal so hard.

A patrol car pulled alongside the Prius and officers told Sikes over a loudspeaker to push the brake pedal to the floor and apply the emergency brake.

"They also got it going on a steep upgrade," said Officer Jesse Udovich. "Between those three things, they got it to slow down."

After the car decelerated to about 50 mph, Sikes turned off the engine and coasted to a halt.

The officer then maneuvered his car in front of the Prius as a precautionary block, Udovich said.

In a statement, Toyota said it has dispatched a field technical specialist to San Diego to investigate the incident.

Toyota has recalled some 8.5 million vehicles worldwide - more than 6 million in the United States - since last fall because of acceleration problems in multiple models and braking issues in the Prius.

Toyota owners have complained of their vehicles speeding out of control despite efforts to slow down, sometimes resulting in deadly crashes. The government has received complaints of 34 deaths linked to sudden acceleration of Toyota vehicles since 2000.

One of the crashes claimed the life of a CHP officer last August.

Off-duty CHP Officer Mark Saylor was killed along with his wife, her brother and the couple's daughter after their Lexus' accelerator got stuck in La Mesa.

The Toyota-manufactured loaner vehicle slammed into a sport utility vehicle at about 100 mph, careened off the freeway, hit an embankment, overturned and burst into flames.

[mrmako]

More BS from Toyota....

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nb20100306a1.html

But the best parts are as follows (cliffs for the lazy):

AP also found that Toyota:

• Has frequently refused to provide key information sought by crash victims and survivors.

• Uses proprietary software in its EDRs. Until this week, there was only a single laptop in the U.S. containing the software needed to read the data following a crash.

• In some lawsuits, when pressed to provide recorder information, Toyota either settled or provided printouts with the key columns blank.

And another:

Last week, Toyota acknowledged it has only a single laptop available in the U.S. to download its data recorder information because it is still a prototype, despite being in use since 2001 in Toyota vehicles. Three other laptops capable of reading the devices were delivered this week to NHTSA for training on their use, Toyota said, and 150 more will be brought to the U.S. for commercial use by the end of April.

Wow...... This may be the undoing of the largest company on record. And I thought Firestone had it bad...

[dallison]

the funny thing is, this stuff is just coming out of the woodwork without much prying. I don't think toyota can afford the legal bills even though they have deep pockets. I give them 10-15 years before they really recover.

When you think the impossible like toyota going out of business, it seems very far fetched but you never know.

[knight rider]

Originally Posted by PortlandRL

Yet another one....thankfully they were able to get this one stopped. Can't wait to hear something fresh from Toyota's Big Bag o' Excuses.

http://www.katu.com/news/national/87075807.html

Here's the vid

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/...ius.cnn?hpt=T1

[doopstr]

at the Honda racing commercial before that vid.
I'm glad everyone was okay. Amazing that accidents and death were avoided.

[Majofo]

[Majofo]

damn.. he seems pretty legit as well not a sensationalist trying to cash a quick buck.

[doopstr]

Yeah I think this one sounds pretty legit. More so than the lady that claimed god stopped her car.

[fsttyms1]

Toyota better have some good lawyers and PR people for the mess that is headin their way

[PortlandRL]

Ten bucks says that they find the floor mat not on the hooks and blame that instead.

[PortlandRL]

Another one in New York....

http://www.freep.com/article/2010030....Y.-police-say

PURCHASE — A woman smashed into a stone wall this morning because of a stuck accelerator on a Toyota Prius, Harrison police said.

The 56-year-old driver suffered non-life threatening injuries, acting Chief Anthony Marraccini said.

The woman was pulling out of the driveway at 3700 Purchase St. facing forward when the accelerator stuck, police said.

The car "shot" across the street smashing into a stone wall, Marraccini said.

The collision sent "some pretty big boulders" fairly far, Marraccini said.

Marraccini said the floor mat has been pretty much ruled out as a cause. The 2005 car appears to have had corrective action taken, Marraccini said. The floor mat was tied to the seat base with plastic ties.

The car has been taken to police headquarters for further analysis.

The driver was being evaluated at White Plains Hospital Center.

On Monday, a 2008 Toyota Prius was finally stopped after attaining 94 m.p.h. on a California interstate due to a stuck accelerator pedal.

According to media reports, California Highway Patrol figured the car had traveled over 20 miles with the stuck pedal.

That car was stopped by applying the emergency brake, standing on the brakes and turning it off, according to media reports.

[mrmako]

By now, we know the guy in Cali had a $700K debt, so he was fishing for gold. That happens. It still does not negate the whole recall thing.

I say this because I just saw a Toyota ad, with a Prius. It was stopped at a school entrance, and kids were crossing the road right in front of it, and it was titled "Safety Drive" (yes, in English).... What a load of PR shit they are shoveling.

[Will Y.]

Originally Posted by MSNBC

Driver told investigators car sped up on its own despite her trying to stop it

AP, updated 19 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Federal regulators say computer data from a Toyota Prius that crashed in New York show that at the time of the accident the throttle was open and the driver was not hitting the brakes.

A housekeeper driving the car on March 9 told police that it sped up on its own before crashing despite her braking.

The accident prompted an intense investigation because Toyota has recalled more than 8 million cars since last fall because gas pedals could become stuck or be held down by floor mats.

Technicians from Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration examined the wrecked Prius Wednesday in Harrison, N.Y.

On Thursday, NHTSA said information from the car's computer systems indicated there was no application of the brakes and the throttle was fully open.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35936650/ns/business-autos/

Surprised? Not me.
Assume at 1% of American drivers are idiots (yes, that's too low, based on personal observation )-- that alone is going to account for a lot of crashes right there.

[OLD_HATCH]

unintended acceleration from simply mistaking the gas pedal for the brake is unfortunately commonplace. I personally see a story like this about once a month, and its a shame this is taking away from the real fact that there is a problem with some cars.

[Majofo]

Originally Posted by JDM_UA5

2003 ssm tl-s parts for sale...

oem balast with 8k bulbs-250.00
hid foglights 8k-40.00
18x9.5 tsw rims with tires 600.00 firm
led interior lights-20.00
tien s-tech springs-50.00 you take them off 80.00 if i take them off
oem radio with code-50.00
clear side markers with led bulb-50.00 "off an Ek"
any interior parts are all up for sale

plz note i will not ship anywhere everything must be picked up and im in the san fernando are SO-CAL PM if interested...thanx

[dallison]

Originally Posted by JDM_UA5

2003 ssm tl-s parts for sale...

oem balast with 8k bulbs-250.00
hid foglights 8k-40.00
18x9.5 tsw rims with tires 600.00 firm
led interior lights-20.00
tien s-tech springs-50.00 you take them off 80.00 if i take them off
oem radio with code-50.00
clear side markers with led bulb-50.00 "off an Ek"
any interior parts are all up for sale

plz note i will not ship anywhere everything must be picked up and im in the san fernando are SO-CAL PM if interested...thanx

did you have multiple windows open and post to the wrong forum, or are you really slow?

[Will Y.]

Originally Posted by dallison

did you have multiple windows open and post to the wrong forum, or are you really slow?

This is the wrong thread for "really slow..."

[tmnhs81]

Another lawsuit. A 2002 Camry??

http://www.insidebayarea.com/trivall...481?source=rss

[Will Y.]

Originally Posted by LA Times

The driver didn't brake before slamming into a wall, police find, concurring with U.S. safety regulators.
Associated Press, March 23, 2010
Harrison, N.Y.
Police who investigated the crash of a Toyota Prius in the New York suburbs said Monday that they agreed with federal regulators that driver error caused it.

The investigation found that the driver, housekeeper Gloria Rosel, didn't brake before she crashed into a wall, Harrison police Capt. Anthony Marraccini said. She was not seriously hurt.

"The vehicle accelerator in this case was depressed 100% at the time of collision, and there was absolutely no indication of any brake application," Marraccini said.

"She believes she depressed the brake, but that just simply isn't the case here," he said. There was no intent to deceive, he said, and Rosel won't be charged.

The finding concurs with that of U.S. safety regulators, who last week said the car's computers showed the throttle was open and the brakes not applied.

Rosel, 56, was driving the 2005 Prius on March 9 when, she reported, it sped up on its own down a driveway and slammed into a stone wall despite her braking.

Marraccini said the car's computers showed that the Prius' top speed down the driveway was 35 mph and that it was going 27 mph when it hit the wall.

Toyota spokesman Wade Hoyt said the investigation showed that the company's cars are safe, and "if you step on the brake they'll stop, even if the accelerator is glued to the floor."

Toyota has recalled more than 8 million cars since last fall over gas pedals that could become stuck or be held down by floor mats.

The Prius in the Harrison crash had not been recalled for sticky accelerators. However, it had been repaired for the floor mat problem.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...,1184106.story

It sounds like Toyota is giving the feds access to the black boxes/EDRs now...

[srika]

I would love to see Toyota start suing these morons for defamation (slander, whatever) and punitive damages.. things like that.

[MiataNut]

Originally Posted by srika

I would love to see Toyota start suing these morons for defamation (slander, whatever) and punitive damages.. things like that.

In the case of the maid, you can't sue for sheer idiocy. But the guy who went 94 MPH and wasted the cops time, shyt yeah, bust him.